Kalyani Thakur Charal in Conversation with Chandana Manna

[This interview of Kalyani Thakur was conducted in Bengali at her residence in Kolkata in September 2023.]

Kalyani Thakur Charal, the Dalit feminist writer, prefers to speak unpleasant truths rather than pleasant lies. Through her writings, she has been able to challenge the age-old rules of society and set an example. So, when she found that only because of her lower caste identity, the upper caste people were misbehaving with her under the disguised form of civility, she decided to speak out about the unarticulated discrimination of her community. She belongs to a Dalit community called Chandal who decided to reject the name Chandal in the 1911 census and adopt Namasudras. Although caste discrimination was prohibited in the Constitution of independent India in 1950, Namasudras were still considered Chandals by the upper castes, and later, through the perversion of usage, Chandal became Charal, a slang (Similarly the Chamar, Chuwar/Bawri is a community but is used as an abusive word). Whenever any stranger came to meet her, a nagging question popped into their minds, is Kalyani a Charal? Some did not dare to ask her. So, she added “Charal” to her name as a language of protest that identified her caste.

Kalyani Thakur Charal is the leading Dalit voice of West Bengal. She identifies herself as a Dalit activist who voices the humiliation, suppression and suffering in her writings. She is closely associated with the Dalit movement. She was born on 1st August 1965 at Bogula in Nadia District. After early education there, she passed the higher secondary exam from Dakshin Chatra Netaji Girls’ School in Machhlandpur in 1984. She passed B.Com with Honours in Commerce from Bogula Srikrishna College in 1987 and got a job in the Railways the same year. She did her M.Com in 1989 from Calcutta University while working in the railways. In 1994, she started a little magazine called ‘Neer Ritupatra’ from a wall magazine ‘Neer’. At first, it was published as a special issue based on different topics. For the past eight to ten years, it has been serving as a writing platform for Dalit women. She is a member of ‘Bangla Dalit Sahitya Sanstha’ and a member of the editorial board of ‘Chaturtha Duniya’ (The Fourth World) and a member of Dalit Sahitya Akademi, Government of West Bengal. She has authored several poetry collections, short story collections, essay collections, autobiographies and novels. Her poetry collections are- Dhorlei Juddha Sunischit (The Battle is Inevitable When We Meet) (2003, 2006), Je Meye Adhar Gone (From The Girl Who Tracks The Dark) (2008), Chandalinir Kobita (Chandalini’s Poetry) (2011), Chandalini Bhone (Chandalini’s Feelings) (2015), Bon Chandalir Gatha (The Story of Forest Chandali) (2022). She has penned stories too: Firey Elo Ulango Hoye (And She Returned Naked) (1421) and a collection of articles, “Chandalinir Bibbriti-1”, (Chandalini’s Statement-1) (2012), “Chandalinir Bibbriti -2” (Chandalini’s Statement-2); Autobiography Ami Keno Charal Likhi (Why Do I Write Charal) (2016, 2021). She has a novel to her credit, Andhar Bill O Kichhu Manush (Andhar Bill and Some People) (2011). Many of her compositions were published in the disguised name of Chandalini and Bana Chandali. Books that she has edited include Lokosanskritik Prabandha Sankalan (Essay Collection of Folk Culture, 2008), Matua Dharma Prasange (In the Context of Matua Religion, 2010), Sudhanshu Dulal Adhikari Rachana Samagra (Complete Works of Sudhanshu Dulal Adhikari, 2008), Dalit Lekhika – Women’s writings from Bengal (2020). In 2016, she went to Melbourne at the invitation of Monash University in Australia and in 2018 she went to Nottingham University in England at the invitation of Nottingham Trent University. There was a workshop on her poetry and later she gave an interview to a BBC reporter. Here, Chandana Manna converses with her.

Chandana Manna (CM): What is the inspiration behind your pen?
Kalyani Thakur (KT): Writing comes naturally to me as a medium of expression. My writing is basically for people, and of people. Writing freed me from anger against social oppression and discrimination. I used the pen as a weapon. I write so that I can protest. Because Dalit women talk differently, the language of my writing is an expression of disgust against suppression, oppression and marginalisation. The amount of humiliation I received from society in the name of caste, actually haunted me to protest in the form of writing.

CM: You started your writing career with poems. How many poetry collections have you published so far and what are they?
KT: I used to maintain a diary initially. Sometimes I wrote poems too. I wrote my first poem as a teenager. I don’t remember the name of that poem now. It was not a very meaningful one. But like every Bengali teenager, my poem was also emotional in tone. It was published in our village magazine. Then I was a student in class six or seven. My early poems were basically romantic. Later, I started to write about Dalit problems when I became acquainted with Bangla Dalit Sahitya Sanstha. And as time passed, I have dealt with several different subjects and issues in my poetry. So far five of my poetry collections have been published - Dhorlei Juddha Sunischit (The Battle is Inevitable When We Meet) (2003, 2006); Je Meye Adhar Gone (From The Girl Who Tracks The Dark) (2008); Chandalinir Kobita (Chandalini’s Poetry) (2011); Chandalini Bhone (Chandalini’s Feelings) (2015); Bon Chandalir Gatha (The Story of Forest Chandali) (2022)

CM: What are the fundamental themes of your poems?
KT: I have dealt with various topics. The most important issue that I have raised in my writings is the Dalit issue. Besides that, my poems portrayed the picture of love, nature, society, feminism and women’s issues, age-old history of caste oppression, socio-political insecurities, conservatism, narrow-mindedness, intolerance, refugee issues, cultural extremism, loneliness, consumerism, emptiness, war and peace, land problem, folk culture and so on.

CM:  You have said that the prime theme of your poems is the Dalit problem. How and when did this Dalit consciousness grow in you?
KT: I got this Dalit consciousness from my father. Since birth, I have seen my father closely associated with various social works. Socially conscious people of our village used to come to our house. Baba was greatly influenced by Guruchand Thakur’s movement to build an educated society. He was a Gosain of the Matua community. Baba oftentimes spoke about Ambedkar, Harichand Thakur and Guruchand Thakur. Then, after joining Bangla Dalit Sahitya Sanstha, my Dalit consciousness sharpened.

CM: You have presented the life narratives of Dalit women in various poems. Well, do you consider yourself a Dalit feminist or a Dalit womanist?
KT: I think the word womanist is more appropriate to justify my identity. There are several fundamental differences between Western feminism and Dalit feminism. Dalit women writers are ecofeminists in the sense that they feel an intimate connection with soil, forest and nature. Like them, I am also very fond of nature. Even the term Dalit womanist justifies my identity in terms of caste, religion, caste and gender. Besides, the womanist approach is much more humanist than feminist. I don’t create art for art’s sake. I write for life’s sake.

CM: You have highlighted various timely, important, and much-debated topics in your writings. Your poems are a critique of Marxism, Ambedkarism and Manuvad. Please say something about this.
KT: I do not have any vast knowledge of theory. Being born in a poor Dalit family, I had seen oppression and exploitation in the name of caste. I had seen the cruel face of poverty, its bitterness in taste. However, I think that complete social change in India is not possible without accepting Marxism and Ambedkarism. Indian Marxists, especially Bengali Marxists, never accepted Ambedkar the way Gandhi was accepted. On the contrary, they have always tried to keep Ambedkar away from the limelight. They have always made people class-conscious only to cover up the caste system. The caste-based society of Bengal is nurturing casteism under the cover of a theory or ’ism’. That is why many people still have the wrong idea that there is no caste problem in Bengal. They have combined Marx and Manu in the same context.

CM: For the last 30 years since 1993, you have been successfully running the magazine Neer. Tell us something about the magazine.
KT: Neer first debuted as a wall magazine. Later its printed version was published in 1993-94 as a special edition. Notable topics in my magazines include – Folk Literature, Refugee Issues, Conservation Systems, Disasters, Loneliness, and Water crisis. There are Short stories of Dalit women in various indigenous languages like Santhali, Oraon, Kamtapuri, Rarh, Dapno etc. Critical discussion of Ambedkar, Buddhism and Matua Dharma are featured too.
I have published a separate special edition wherein Dalit women of other regional languages of India have contributed. Thus, various editions have shed light on different topics.

CM: In many of your poems you bring references of Chuni Kotal who was a Dalit girl and a poet from the Lodha Savar community of Bengal. She became the victim of caste oppression and was forced to commit suicide. When you fulminated on the incident of putting a shoe garland on Babasaheb’s statue in your poem “Notun Mashal Jwali” (Let’s Light up the New Torch) you called her to accompany you. Tell us something about Chuni Kotal and this poem.
KT: The political leaders of different parties have indeed raised their voices against the garlanding of Ambedkar’s statue with shoes in Maharashtra, but no significant social change has taken place. In fact, those who sow the seeds of communalism are the ones who later talk about harmony. The purpose of my writing is to raise the consciousness of society and to change the way of its thinking. So, I felt like calling Chuni – let’s light the torch again. If we want to light up society’s darkness, we have to take responsibility ourselves. Only iconoclasts like Chuni can bring out this change.

CM: In these two poems “Juddha Birodhi Kobita” (Poetry against War) and “Cyber Juddha”, (Cyber War) you have written like Sukanta Bhattacharya, “We don’t want war anymore”. In the current Israel-Palestine wartime situation, these poems are very relevant. What message do you want to convey through this?
KT: I love peace. I want peace. I could never tolerate the sight of blood, fire, death, murder and destruction. I am a patient with depression and anxiety. Seeing these things makes me sicklier and I need medical treatment. I want a world free of land-grabbing problems, aggressive mentality, murder and vandalism. The world will be a healthy place for children to live. There will be peace all around. The national flag of every country in the world will have the same colour and it will be ‘white’.

CM: You spoke about the problems of society recurrently in your poems, a society that is communal, racist, casteist and barren. What is necessary to build a non-discriminatory, harmonious society? What do you think?
KT: Giving value to every person as a human being, respecting the constitution of our country and treating Brahmins-tribals, kings-subjects, as equals. The biggest festival in Bengal is Durga Puja where everyone celebrates the slaying of Asur. Who are the Asuras? A Dalit community whom the state deems evil and that’s why feels the need to exterminate them. It is an open insult to the constitution of our country. And it is nothing but caste atrocities. If there is no awakening of values, if the constitution of the country is not respected enough, it will not be possible to build a harmonious society.

CM: Your poem “Bhuban Gramer Basindara” (The People of Global Village) is a bit different in tone. What message do you want to convey through this poem?
KT: Actually ‘Bhuban Gram’ means ‘global village’. This poem was written in a special context. When the country’s ruling elites were signing MOUs with foreign markets, my protest was echoed like this – “Baaper amra/ nam janina baap giyechhe/ onno grohe ante aro samogre.” (We don’t know the father’s name/ Father has gone to another planet/ to fetch more materials)

CM:  Another poem of protest “Nepora Doi Mare Chirokal” (The Fat Cats Get the Cream, Always) where you wrote about the social, political and communal anarchy of Bengal. Can you say something about this?
KT: The context of this poem is mainly the Nandigram massacre where common people were being cheated of their dues. For the sake of industry, they were being uprooted from their agricultural land. The universal fact is that those who are the people of the soil could never own the soil. The land is owned by the upper class. In this context, I have also expressed the pain of the people of Singur, Godhra and Marichjhapi who suffered in the same way. The poor are nothing but the vote bank of this country. The Poor, Dalits and Muslims die in all the riots in this country. Upper-class people get the profits from the process. The Bhadralok have never been hit by bullets. And they never will be…

CM: Which poem would you say is your representative poem?
KT: Andhare O Meye (The-Girl-Who-Tracks-The-Dark). Well, I am reading it.

*****

 

THE GIRL WHO TRACKS THE DARK

-Kalyani Thakur
(Translated by Sipra Mukherjee)

Whisper into the ears of the moonshine about:
 The-girl-who-tracks-the-dark

Even the firefly knows of
The-girl-in-the-corners-of-the-room

The deer, friends to
The-girl-who-breaks-words

The clouds know of her hurt
The-girl-who-is-drenched-in-rain.

She’s
The-girl-who-swims-against-the-current

Her boat has a tattered sail in
Autumnal storms

The-girl-who-grinds-the-spices
Has the mortar and pestle
 For her companions

The spices know her language,
The ginger,
The poppy,
The chilli
 And
The cumin.

Fascinating she seems,
This
 Tough-up-girl

Wiping sweat off her brow
Lifting the plough,
This
 Jewel-in-the-dark.